Official Wrestlemania Thread Options

[Jobasfistpump62]

Wrestlemania 20 is actually considered a disappointment. The Taker/Kane match was bad, there were 2 tag team fatal four way elimination matches that royally sucked, Evolution vs. Rock N' Sock was eh, and Victoria vs. Molly was eh. The triple threat was classic, Angle/Eddie was good, Jericho/Christian was very good, but overshadowed, and Cena/Show was above average. That's about it. 24 gets a ton of praise as the second best (Edge/Taker, Orton/Cena/HHH, HBK/Flair, JBL/Finlay, MITB, Show/Mayweather), as does 19 (Angle/Brock, Austin/Rock, Jericho/Michaels, Vince/Hogan).

In my opinion, Cena has had 5 star matches with HBK (Raw from England), Edge (TLC and LMS), and Umaga (LMS) off the top of my head. Batista's match with Taker from 23 is also considered a 5 star match by many. Honestly, if I had to bet on it, I'd say 3.5 stars like you're saying, but I have a real good feeling about it.

As for Punk/Rey, Punk's TLC with Jeff was amazing and deserved 5 stars. I can't think of anymore off the top of my head because he hasn't had any other feuds really besides Taker. Rey on the other hand, had a definite 5 star match with Jericho this summer (don't remember from when) and a few other great ones. He also had very, very good matches with Ziggler and Morrison. I think you're underrating how good this match could be.

This post has been edited by Jobasfistpump62: Mar 2 2010, 02:26 AM

[KyleLitke]

I think you're way too liberal with 5 stars, to be honest. Cena/Umaga was very good and way exceeded expectations, but it's not even close to 5 stars. Probably go with 4. There's no way I'd look at any epic 5 star match like Flair/Steamboat, Steamboat/Savage, Rock/Austin, Bret/Owen, HBK/Undertaker, even HHH/Foley from the Rumble and put Cena/Umaga on the same level as those. Same with Cena/Edge, same with Rey/Jericho even though I loved that feud. Batista/Undertaker wasn't even close either. Again, way better than I expected but I wouldn't even go 4 stars on that one. A match has to be really something to make me go 5 stars on it. I'm actually not sure there was one (in my mind) for quite a long time until HBK/Undertaker. I'd have to think about it but I might actually say none since Benoit/HBK/HHH (either Wrestlemania for sure or maybe the Backlash rematch, I think I might have considered that 5 stars but don't remember it). Tons of really good matches after that, but nothing for that 5 year period I would have said "Essentially a perfect match".

As for Rey/Punk, like I said, I think it'll be good. But first, I disagree on either guy having a 5 star match in the last year, and those matches I actually did see all of them. 4-4.5 star, absolutely, but I wouldn't go all the way. Also, Jericho and Rey are GREAT together, having some of the best chemistry of anyone in the company, maybe because of how far back they go. It's not fair to expect that of Punk. Punk/Hardy was a huge match, with Hardy at his absolute peak and Punk in the midst of a hot heel turn. This, on the other hand, is a match that, at the very best, will be the "#4 match of the show", and that's only if they don't consider HHH/Sheamus or Money in the Bank higher. I really don't expect them to even be given the chance to steal the show. I don't think they'll be given enough time to setup a big 5 star (or even 4 star, although that's much more likely) match. Plus the company, for whatever reason, doesn't seem behind Punk at all. They clearly see how over he is because they keep giving him time, but they're not giving him any big matches and they're not giving him any real wins at all. Even this match seems very thrown in, just a "Who's left? Oh, guess it's Punk and Rey, toss them in a match" type thing. I hope for a 5 star classic, but I don't think they'll be given anywhere near the time to build to it.

As far as the second best Wrestlemania, not sure 24 holds up as well. Edge/Taker was really good (somewhere around 4-4.5 I'd say). HBK/Flair wasn't the best match with Flair as old as he was, although it was solid, but the story around it was good. The rest was mostly average for me or forgettable (MitB was probably good but they all run together in my head after this many years). I don't think it ages as well...except for I guess Flair's retirement, nothing "important" happened that actually mattered even a couple weeks later.

19 was good. Wasn't that the HHH/Booker T. match though? I HATED that match and angle leading up to it. HHH pretty much implied flat out that Booker was stupid and didn't deserve a shot because he was black, and then Booker LOST THE MATCH??? You can't do a racist angle and then have the racist guy stand tall at the end, come on. Plus the match sucked. That soured me on that whole PPV, although you're right, there was some really good stuff on it.

Actually this could be an interesting question. I'll start another thread.

[Jobasfistpump62]

Yeah, we definitely have a different opinion of what a 5 star match is. I shouldn't be as liberal as I am, but that's how I feel. I think our opinions on how good matches were is the same, but we just have different star ratings, if that makes any sense.

[KyleLitke]

Yeah, that's probably the case. I definitely don't find any of the matches you've mentioned to be bad. Except for Batista/Undertaker (which I think is about 3.5 stars and way better than I ever expected it to be), I'd probably call most of the matches you mentioned 4 stars or better...just don't want to go all the way.

[Wang+Hughes]

I dunno...I am looking forward to it and I think it's been done well, but it's lost a little bit. I know they couldn't keep it secret and I know they had to build the match, but the big moment for me was seeing Bret return. Now that he's been back for weeks, it's lost some of its luster, and since I have no expectations that Bret can still bring it in the ring with the injuries/stroke/12 years off/facing a 60 year old Vince, I'm not really dying to see him in the ring again. If he could still go and it was against, say, Shawn, I'd be buying the PPV right now for the promise of that, but it's just not there for this.It's still a match I'm looking forward to seeing,I don't think it'll be a total suckfest because Vince is usually very good about booking his matches properly to make them decent, but I think the whole "Bret Hart is back in a WWE ring!" has kind of worn off after a month and a half of will they or won't they, and it's not going to be as epic as it could have been.

I'm not saying they should have,but I actually wish Bret didn't even show up before now. Have Vince taunt him or something leading up to Wrestlemania (for whatever reason), challenge him to a match, and do what Eric Bischoff did in WCW when he challenged Vince, come out to the ring at WM and do the whole "Well, I guess Bret is scared, he won't come out, blah blah blah", then Bret's music hits, that would have been an absolutely epic reaction,do the match then, and then the next night Bret can do the thing with Shawn.

Maybe that wouldn't have worked as well,but I think Bret/Vince sells itself to be honest, and having Bret appear on TV as much as he has (which isn't even a lot) takes a bit away from the novelty of "He'll never work for them again!". I think the buildup has been just fine, just the novelty has worn off.

I was talking about when Austin is named guest referee (this is what I'm expecting when he guests hosts). I mean that is HUGE. You got 13 years inthe making then the special ref will be his two most hated enemies.. Hart/Vince/Austin will be insane. Then you'll likely get some celebration with Bret and Austin. That would be one hell of a WM moment.

[Wang+Hughes]

Wrestlemania 20 is actually considered a disappointment. The Taker/Kane match was bad, there were 2 tag team fatal four way elimination matches that royally sucked, Evolution vs. Rock N' Sock was eh, and Victoria vs. Molly was eh. The triple threat was classic, Angle/Eddie was good, Jericho/Christian was very good, but overshadowed, and Cena/Show was above average. That's about it. 24 gets a ton of praise as the second best (Edge/Taker, Orton/Cena/HHH, HBK/Flair, JBL/Finlay, MITB, Show/Mayweather), as does 19 (Angle/Brock, Austin/Rock, Jericho/Michaels, Vince/Hogan).

In my opinion, Cena has had 5 star matches with HBK (Raw from England), Edge (TLC and LMS), and Umaga (LMS) off the top of my head. Batista's match with Taker from 23 is also considered a 5 star match by many. Honestly, if I had to bet on it, I'd say 3.5 stars like you're saying, but I have a real good feeling about it.

As for Punk/Rey, Punk's TLC with Jeff was amazing and deserved 5 stars. I can't think of anymore off the top of my head because he hasn't had any other feuds really besides Taker. Rey on the other hand, had a definite 5 star match with Jericho this summer (don't remember from when) and a few other great ones. He also had very, very good matches with Ziggler and Morrison. I think you're underrating how good this match could be.

The only close to 5 star match of Cena I would agree with outta that list is his match with HBK on Raw. But what do you expect it's Shawn Michaels. Batista/Cena will be 3.5 to 4 at WrestleMania (which is still very good). I am alot more interested in this one though rather than the Summerslam they threw that match together. It should have been saved for the first time ever at WrestleMania not Summerslam.

Shawn/Taker, Edge/Jericho, and Rey/Punk IMO all have the possiblities to be 5 stars. However, I don't think and this is not a knock on any WM but I don't think ANYTHING is ever gonna top WrestleMania 17. That stands alone as the greatest PPV (not only WrestleMania) ever IMO.

[Wang+Hughes]

Heh, no offense, but I think you're insane. Neither Batista nor Cena has ever hada 5 star match that I've ever seen, Cena's maybe close with guys like HBK, but Batista's never even been close to that level...they don't have the technical wrestling ability to do it that way and while they're solid brawlers (especially Cena), they're not Rock/Austin. No way in hell is Orton/Legacy/whatever that good...as much as I like Orton's heel character, in the ring he's not that great, and the kids are good but not quite at that level. Punk and Rey are good but if you're expecting a 5 star match, I think you'll be really disappointed, while both guys are very capable wrestlers, I don't think the WWE style match type that they'll have to wrestle will lend itself very well to these two putting on a 5 star match. Money in the Bank is solid but I wouldn't give it 4 stars the past few years with better guys in it. The only ones I agree on are Jericho/Edge and HBK/Undertaker, HOWEVER, the problem with HBK/Undertaker is even if they put on another 5 star match, it's not the same as what happened last year, which was really epic. Look at the expectations...last year, people went in thinking "Eh, Undertaker's really limited now, it should be okay since HBK is good, but nothing amazing", and were blown away with this epic 5 star match. This year people are going in thinking "5 star all the way, mark it down for match of the year right now!", and anything short of somehow even better than last year will be a bit disappointing.

I just don't see how Cena's going to have a better match against Batista then he's ever had against guys like HBK, Jericho, and Edge, all far superior wrestlers to Batista. Do I think it will be good, yes. I expect somewhere between 3-4 stars and it wouldn't shock me if they put on a 4 star match, but I'll be absolutely shocked if they suddenly pull out wrestling ability they've been hiding for their entire careers and put on a 5 star match. I don't see Orton as being capable of having a 4 star match against anyone short of an HBK type talent at this point. Punk and Mysterio are great wrestlers but let's be honest, with the WWE style being the way it is, when was the last time either guy had a real, 5 star classic? Even the Punk/Hardy series of matches, which I thought were awesome, weren't quite that good. I don't think it's virtually impossible like I do for Batista/Cena, but I'm expecting about a 3.5 star match from them. And Money in the Bank is more or less the same as it is every year, but this year there's no Edge, no RVD, no Punk, no Jericho, no Morrison (probably, although that can change if he gets added in a last chance battle royal type thing). I certainly expect it to be good and enjoyable, but again, 3 stars or so, because I really don't think it's going to be any different from the last few years, which are essentialy the same thing...set up spot,hit spot, repeat 15 times until someone wins. Those are fun but after so many they run together. One of the things I liked about TLC 2 was they actually did something a little differently by involving the outside interference of Lita, Spike, and Rhyno and doing it well. Plus the match wasn't overdone at that point. The thing I expect to enjoy the most in MitB this year is rooting for Christian rather than the match itself. I also think these things tend to become a huge mess (entertaining, but entertaining in a "3 star" kind of way) when you throw more than 5 or 6 single wrestlers into the match.

As for the build, I thought Orton/HHH had really good build last year, but that match was a disaster. And we do still have a few weeks to go (and so far the build has been fantastic), but Rock/Austin had some of the best build, in my opinion, we've ever seen, complete with one of the best video packages I've ever seen.

To each their own of course, I just think you're crazy. I think it's got a chance to be up there, maybe even the second best ever (what's universally considered the second best Wrestlemania, anyway? 10? 20? 10 had the two 5 star matches but nothing else, Luger/Yokozuna is painful to watch, and 20 had the 5 star main event but I honestly don't remember the rest of the PPV) if a lot of things break right. But best? I can't see that. Hell, I hope it is because it would mean an absolutely amazing PPV to top 17, I just don't see that happening. I don't think the talent currently in the WWE is capable of matching that. Nobody in the company is as over as either Austin or the Rock was at that point, and I don't think, overall, the wrestlers can match the ability of Rock/Austin/Angle/Benoit/HHH in his prime/etc. But we'll see.

As for the build, I thought Orton/HHH had really good build last year, but that match was a disaster. And we do still have a few weeks to go (and so far the build has been fantastic), but Rock/Austin had some of the best build, in my opinion, we've ever seen, complete with one of the best video packages I've ever seen.

people might disagree with me and that's OK.. You know why Orton/HHH failed so bad after the great build up? Well 1. there should have been a NO DQ stipulation and 2 The main reason IMO. no one really cared about anything after Shawn/Taker completely killed it.

[KyleLitke]

people might disagree with me and that's OK.. You know why Orton/HHH failed so bad after the great build up? Well 1. there should have been a NO DQ stipulation and 2 The main reason IMO. no one really cared about anything after Shawn/Taker completely killed it.

I don't think the match was good either. I agree with you that it should have been no DQ, and I also agree that Shawn/Taker hurt it, but I didn't think the match was set up very well either (the actual match, not the build).

[Wang+Hughes]

I don't think the match was good either. I agree with you that it should have been no DQ, and I also agree that Shawn/Taker hurt it, but I didn't think the match was set up very well either (the actual match, not the build).

The whole feud was pretty much we'll do anyything to each other (hhh destroying orton's home, orton attacking his family, etc etc.. and they end it with a freaking 1 on 1 wrestling match? come on..

[Vic Mackey]

Heh, no offense, but I think you're insane. Neither Batista nor Cena has ever hada 5 star match that I've ever seen, Cena's maybe close with guys like HBK, but Batista's never even been close to that level...they don't have the technical wrestling ability to do it that way and while they're solid brawlers (especially Cena), they're not Rock/Austin. No way in hell is Orton/Legacy/whatever that good...as much as I like Orton's heel character, in the ring he's not that great, and the kids are good but not quite at that level. Punk and Rey are good but if you're expecting a 5 star match, I think you'll be really disappointed, while both guys are very capable wrestlers, I don't think the WWE style match type that they'll have to wrestle will lend itself very well to these two putting on a 5 star match. Money in the Bank is solid but I wouldn't give it 4 stars the past few years with better guys in it. The only ones I agree on are Jericho/Edge and HBK/Undertaker, HOWEVER, the problem with HBK/Undertaker is even if they put on another 5 star match, it's not the same as what happened last year, which was really epic. Look at the expectations...last year, people went in thinking "Eh, Undertaker's really limited now, it should be okay since HBK is good, but nothing amazing", and were blown away with this epic 5 star match. This year people are going in thinking "5 star all the way, mark it down for match of the year right now!", and anything short of somehow even better than last year will be a bit disappointing.

I just don't see how Cena's going to have a better match against Batista then he's ever had against guys like HBK, Jericho, and Edge, all far superior wrestlers to Batista. Do I think it will be good, yes. I expect somewhere between 3-4 stars and it wouldn't shock me if they put on a 4 star match, but I'll be absolutely shocked if they suddenly pull out wrestling ability they've been hiding for their entire careers and put on a 5 star match. I don't see Orton as being capable of having a 4 star match against anyone short of an HBK type talent at this point. Punk and Mysterio are great wrestlers but let's be honest, with the WWE style being the way it is, when was the last time either guy had a real, 5 star classic? Even the Punk/Hardy series of matches, which I thought were awesome, weren't quite that good. I don't think it's virtually impossible like I do for Batista/Cena, but I'm expecting about a 3.5 star match from them. And Money in the Bank is more or less the same as it is every year, but this year there's no Edge, no RVD, no Punk, no Jericho, no Morrison (probably, although that can change if he gets added in a last chance battle royal type thing). I certainly expect it to be good and enjoyable, but again, 3 stars or so, because I really don't think it's going to be any different from the last few years, which are essentialy the same thing...set up spot,hit spot, repeat 15 times until someone wins. Those are fun but after so many they run together. One of the things I liked about TLC 2 was they actually did something a little differently by involving the outside interference of Lita, Spike, and Rhyno and doing it well. Plus the match wasn't overdone at that point. The thing I expect to enjoy the most in MitB this year is rooting for Christian rather than the match itself. I also think these things tend to become a huge mess (entertaining, but entertaining in a "3 star" kind of way) when you throw more than 5 or 6 single wrestlers into the match.

As for the build, I thought Orton/HHH had really good build last year, but that match was a disaster. And we do still have a few weeks to go (and so far the build has been fantastic), but Rock/Austin had some of the best build, in my opinion, we've ever seen, complete with one of the best video packages I've ever seen.

To each their own of course, I just think you're crazy. I think it's got a chance to be up there, maybe even the second best ever (what's universally considered the second best Wrestlemania, anyway? 10? 20? 10 had the two 5 star matches but nothing else, Luger/Yokozuna is painful to watch, and 20 had the 5 star main event but I honestly don't remember the rest of the PPV) if a lot of things break right. But best? I can't see that. Hell, I hope it is because it would mean an absolutely amazing PPV to top 17, I just don't see that happening. I don't think the talent currently in the WWE is capable of matching that. Nobody in the company is as over as either Austin or the Rock was at that point, and I don't think, overall, the wrestlers can match the ability of Rock/Austin/Angle/Benoit/HHH in his prime/etc. But we'll see.

Cena has had some CLASSIC matches, but almost every single one of them was no DQ. Falls count anywhere against JBL, ECW against RVD, last years no DQ against Edge. If he fights Batista no DQ it had potential to be really good. I think this WM has the most depth in terms of names and matches people are looking forward too. This WM feels like a huge deal and I'm looking forward to it more than any wrestling event that I have in years. That doesn't mean the matches will deliver but we'll see.

I agree about HHH and Orton. I thought that match was booked horribly. They built it up like HHH wanted to kill Randy Orton and the whole thing was technical wrestling. Plus they killed Orton's momentum by having him lose. He never recovered.

[Vic Mackey]

The whole feud was pretty much we'll do anyything to each other (hhh destroying orton's home, orton attacking his family, etc etc.. and they end it with a freaking 1 on 1 wrestling match? come on..

Seriously...I was hoping for an emotional HHH to come out and pound Randy Orton for about 15 min straight, blood, guts, weapons, broken tables.....then Orton gets help from Legacy to steal it. Would have been a perfect ending. Plus they completely botched the finish.

[Vic Mackey]

Wrestlemania 20 is actually considered a disappointment. The Taker/Kane match was bad, there were 2 tag team fatal four way elimination matches that royally sucked, Evolution vs. Rock N' Sock was eh, and Victoria vs. Molly was eh. The triple threat was classic, Angle/Eddie was good, Jericho/Christian was very good, but overshadowed, and Cena/Show was above average. That's about it. 24 gets a ton of praise as the second best (Edge/Taker, Orton/Cena/HHH, HBK/Flair, JBL/Finlay, MITB, Show/Mayweather), as does 19 (Angle/Brock, Austin/Rock, Jericho/Michaels, Vince/Hogan).

In my opinion, Cena has had 5 star matches with HBK (Raw from England), Edge (TLC and LMS), and Umaga (LMS) off the top of my head. Batista's match with Taker from 23 is also considered a 5 star match by many. Honestly, if I had to bet on it, I'd say 3.5 stars like you're saying, but I have a real good feeling about it.

As for Punk/Rey, Punk's TLC with Jeff was amazing and deserved 5 stars. I can't think of anymore off the top of my head because he hasn't had any other feuds really besides Taker. Rey on the other hand, had a definite 5 star match with Jericho this summer (don't remember from when) and a few other great ones. He also had very, very good matches with Ziggler and Morrison. I think you're underrating how good this match could be.

I forgot all about Cena's match with Umaga where he choked him out with the ring rope. That was pretty cool.

[KyleLitke]

I agree about HHH and Orton. I thought that match was booked horribly. They built it up like HHH wanted to kill Randy Orton and the whole thing was technical wrestling. Plus they killed Orton's momentum by having him lose. He never recovered.

Agreed on both counts. I usually like technical wrestling but it's neither guys strong suit, and even if it was, like you said, the match was BEGGING for a huge brawl where both guys want to kill each other. Beyond following HBK/Undertaker (which just made it even worse), they just messed up the whole match structure. It really didn't work. Even immediately hitting the finishers like they did...by doing that you've forced the match to slow down immediately, because you can't have both guys pop up from the Pedigree and RKO and be running around like they had no effect, but it needed more energy to it.

[Vic Mackey]

Agreed on both counts. I usually like technical wrestling but it's neither guys strong suit, and even if it was, like you said, the match was BEGGING for a huge brawl where both guys want to kill each other. Beyond following HBK/Undertaker (which just made it even worse), they just messed up the whole match structure. It really didn't work. Even immediately hitting the finishers like they did...by doing that you've forced the match to slow down immediately, because you can't have both guys pop up from the Pedigree and RKO and be running around like they had no effect, but it needed more energy to it.

I thought thats what killed the Rock Austin match at WM15. It was a cool idea to kick out of the finishers cause back then it almost never happened, but Rock hit the Rock Bottom and I'm thinking....wtf....of course he's gonna kick out, they ain't gonna end the show at 10:30.

[KyleLitke]

Cena has had some CLASSIC matches, but almost every single one of them was no DQ. Falls count anywhere against JBL, ECW against RVD, last years no DQ against Edge. If he fights Batista no DQ it had potential to be really good. I think this WM has the most depth in terms of names and matches people are looking forward too. This WM feels like a huge deal and I'm looking forward to it more than any wrestling event that I have in years. That doesn't mean the matches will deliver but we'll see.

I don't like Cena (big secret, I know), and I think in general his offense looks really weak (example: The back suplex where he just kind of drops them casually instead of slamming them down, or the "superman shoulderblock"...stuff like that looks weak and I don't personally like it), but he has definitely had some really good matches. I just don't think he's had that 5 star flawless match on the level with the other matches I consider 5 stars. Although I'll say that I'd have to watch HBK/Cena again, because I remember that being really close and I could end up putting it there. I do think if they make it No DQ it has the potential to be very good, I just don't think it's a potential 5 star match. I don't think Batista has a 5 star match in him and while Cena can be very good and even carry mediocre to crappy wrestlers to great matches (Umaga is a good example), he's not a carry them to a 5 star match guy.

Honestly HBK's one of the only guys left who can really do that. He's got the combination of technical wrestling ability, brawling ability, ring intelligence, selling ability, and in ring charisma that I don't really see from most guys. Most guys are missing a few of them, or they've got everything but not quite as good as HBK does. And some guys just coast...they do the same thing every match and it gets old. No one is immediately springing to mind now, but I remember really not liking Jeff Hardy back in the early 2000s, when he first broke away from Matt, because every match was the same. He had the same moves that he'd repeat over and over. Yawn. Shawn still has it though. That's not to say Shawn's the only one capable of a 5 star match or anything, just that he's the only guy I would expect a match of close to that quality from at this point.

[KyleLitke]

I thought thats what killed the Rock Austin match at WM15. It was a cool idea to kick out of the finishers cause back then it almost never happened, but Rock hit the Rock Bottom and I'm thinking....wtf....of course he's gonna kick out, they ain't gonna end the show at 10:30.

Yeah, exactly. And honestly, HHH nowadays and Orton aren't Rock and Austin, in wrestling ability or in their ability to sell the match. That's not to knock either guy, I think Rock and Austin are two of the best to ever do it, along with Hogan (never really had the wrestling ability but in terms of selling the match, he was great).

Hogan really was good at it, and as insanely over as he always was as a face, I actually think a lot of heels should watch Hogan as a heel. He could be a little cartoonish at times but he was really good at doing the little things. I watched a tag match with him as a heel last week, and he did all the little things like slapping his hand when the ref isn't looking so they'd think a tag was made (rather than just randomly charging in or just switching without bothering), or the way he'd play to the crowd. I forgot how good he was at the little things like that.

[Vic Mackey]

I don't like Cena (big secret, I know), and I think in general his offense looks really weak (example: The back suplex where he just kind of drops them casually instead of slamming them down, or the "superman shoulderblock"...stuff like that looks weak and I don't personally like it), but he has definitely had some really good matches. I just don't think he's had that 5 star flawless match on the level with the other matches I consider 5 stars. Although I'll say that I'd have to watch HBK/Cena again, because I remember that being really close and I could end up putting it there. I do think if they make it No DQ it has the potential to be very good, I just don't think it's a potential 5 star match. I don't think Batista has a 5 star match in him and while Cena can be very good and even carry mediocre to crappy wrestlers to great matches (Umaga is a good example), he's not a carry them to a 5 star match guy.

Honestly HBK's one of the only guys left who can really do that. He's got the combination of technical wrestling ability, brawling ability, ring intelligence, selling ability, and in ring charisma that I don't really see from most guys. Most guys are missing a few of them, or they've got everything but not quite as good as HBK does. And some guys just coast...they do the same thing every match and it gets old. No one is immediately springing to mind now, but I remember really not liking Jeff Hardy back in the early 2000s, when he first broke away from Matt, because every match was the same. He had the same moves that he'd repeat over and over. Yawn. Shawn still has it though. That's not to say Shawn's the only one capable of a 5 star match or anything, just that he's the only guy I would expect a match of close to that quality from at this point.

Cena's No DQ against JBL was a 5 star easily. It worked cause neither guy really tried to wrestle but they beat the living hell out of each other. It was one of the more brutal no DQ's they've had not involving Mick Foley. I never liked Jeff Hardy as a wrestler. I liked him as a daredevil, but other than TLC matches he never really stood out to me.

Your right though, the guys with charisma and mic skills can't wrestle, the guys who are good in the ring lack personality, some guys are extremely athletic but have no sense of ring psychology or can work a crowd during their match. HBK's pretty much the only guy left who can really sell a beating. Bret was always great at it, as was Foley. HBK's the only guy left though.

[Vic Mackey]

Yeah, exactly. And honestly, HHH nowadays and Orton aren't Rock and Austin, in wrestling ability or in their ability to sell the match. That's not to knock either guy, I think Rock and Austin are two of the best to ever do it, along with Hogan (never really had the wrestling ability but in terms of selling the match, he was great).

Hogan really was good at it, and as insanely over as he always was as a face, I actually think a lot of heels should watch Hogan as a heel. He could be a little cartoonish at times but he was really good at doing the little things. I watched a tag match with him as a heel last week, and he did all the little things like slapping his hand when the ref isn't looking so they'd think a tag was made (rather than just randomly charging in or just switching without bothering), or the way he'd play to the crowd. I forgot how good he was at the little things like that.

Hogan Austin and Rock all had that, they weren't much in the ring, but their matches were always compelling, you just HAD to see them. I always thought that about Hogan as a heel. He played the coward role to perfection, then come with the cheap shot. The whole "he pulled my hair thing" he always had help. He hardly ever won fair as a heel. Always cheated when the ref wasn't looking. The guy was a master at working the crowd.

[KyleLitke]

Definitely. I actually think Austin and Rock were pretty good in the ring though. Rock didn't have a lot of pure wrestling ability, but he was a great brawler, great seller, and had some of the best ring charisma ever. Austin was a great brawler and, although he rarely did it, he was actually really good as a technical wrestler. He never really showed it off because it didn't fit the character that well,but I remember being really surprised by Austin VS Benoit, because he actually hung with Benoit. Angle as well. Hogan wasn't a good technical wrestler at all and I don't think he was a great brawler either, but he's one of the very best of all time at working the crowd whether he's a face or a heel. Say what you will about him,but he had a real understanding as both a face and a heel as to how to work a crowd, and he took his limited wrestling ability farther than anyone probably ever will because of it.

[Vic Mackey]

Definitely. I actually think Austin and Rock were pretty good in the ring though. Rock didn't have a lot of pure wrestling ability, but he was a great brawler, great seller, and had some of the best ring charisma ever. Austin was a great brawler and, although he rarely did it, he was actually really good as a technical wrestler. He never really showed it off because it didn't fit the character that well,but I remember being really surprised by Austin VS Benoit, because he actually hung with Benoit. Angle as well. Hogan wasn't a good technical wrestler at all and I don't think he was a great brawler either, but he's one of the very best of all time at working the crowd whether he's a face or a heel. Say what you will about him,but he had a real understanding as both a face and a heel as to how to work a crowd, and he took his limited wrestling ability farther than anyone probably ever will because of it.

Rock was a really good athlete, Austin back in WCW could wrestle. His matches in WWE worked cause he had soo much energy. Most of his matches were brawls that were fought outside the ring. But I always thought his energy was what made it work. He just never slowed down.